From the city of no electricity, New Orleans, LA after Hurricane Ida, comes an interview with Cullen Schwarz, the founder and CEO of DoneGood.com. In this interview, Cullen and I discuss how purchasing power is such an important tool we can leverage to change the world.
From the city of no electricity, New Orleans, LA after Hurricane Ida, comes an interview with Cullen Schwarz, the founder and CEO of DoneGood.com. In this interview, Cullen and I discuss how purchasing power is such an important tool we can leverage to change the world.
You're listening to the artists and adventures podcast brought to you by ocelot market headquartered in the great city of new Orleans, Louisiana, and hosted by ocelots lead McKayla. Each week, we chat with professionals working in the sustainability space and brands working with small handmade makers around the globe. The brands we chat with are all paying a fair wage, changing the world through conscious consumption and maintaining cultural traditions in their production. Thank you for joining us. My hope is that you'll find inspiration and fascination in these unique stories. If you like what you hear, the best gift you can give us is leaving a review subscribing to this podcast and spreading the word about ocelot market. Thank you again for joining us, and I hope you enjoy the show today. I'm speaking with Colin Schwartz, who is the head of done good.com, which is an online marketplace for ethical purchasing, unfortunate that our paths crossed in the marketplace world and hoping call him that. You'll kick us off on the podcast by telling us a little bit about yourself and how you came to came about building done. Good.
Speaker 2:Yeah, sure. Um, well, when I was in college, I was in involved in a number of different like progressive organizations, you know, as you do sometimes, you know, when you're, when you're on campus and we were at that time, I'll date myself a little bit, you know, protesting the Iraq war and, you know, uh, in a variety of other things. But one group I got really involved with was called the United students against sweatshops. And that was during that first wave of, you know, now we call it ethical and sustainable fashion or something before I was just anti sweatshop, right. We had chapters across the country and we would get our universities to establish a code of conduct in their apparel contracts. So when a company was bidding to make the university's licensed apparel, so all the goodies that go on all the bookstores and anything else, any clothing or whatever that had the university's logo on it, they would have to demonstrate to bid on the contract. They'd have to demonstrate that they're paying decent wages above poverty wages had safe working conditions, no forest over time, over a certain number of hours, no child traffic labor, and, you know, companies would want to make sure they were in compliance to that. Cause these university contracts were a ton of money. So that was my first exposure to the idea that like consumers and consumer spending, you know, that's a, that's a really powerful force for change for, for, you know, social and environmental justice. And, you know, there's some of the traditional ones, right? Like public policy and voting, getting politicians to act or, you know, donating or working for volunteering with nonprofits. What about this other one? I mean like there's, this is a huge, a huge potential form of activism that could really have a huge impact. And you do it with like large institutional buyers, like universities or businesses. But if you've got a large number of individuals together, then they could wheel a ton of power too, right? Like if we all shifted, you know, if a large number of a shift our spending, then we can encourage businesses to change their behavior. And then that means a real impact on people's lives. Like better wages, people lifting themselves out of poverty, more practices. And that is, you know, I had an idea about this even back in college, but then as you do, you know, you get your first job out of college. I was working in politics and I ended up getting a career in politics. So I was down in DC and would do campaigns around the country sometimes. And so I was a communications director for a couple of members of the Senate. My last job, I was an Obama administration as a communications advisor. And then, but still during that whole time, I kept thinking about this other theory of change and how we consumer spending can be this powerful tool for change. And I, you know, after a while in politics, he just, you know, the change comes so slowly and things are so gridlocked and feel like you're beating your head against the wall, fighting the other side to an endless tie. And I said, look, I really do think that the more powerful potential avenue for change is consumer spending and getting people to wield their consumer power to help make the world better. And so, but I, you know, there was a need to make that easier. And so, you know, I quit my career about six years ago, 2015, and started doing good so we can help make it easy for people to use their purchasing power, to support brands that are doing good for people in the black.
Speaker 1:Okay. So I'm, I'm like wondering where to go next. I think I'm gonna bounce around with these questions. So I guess when you think about the brands that you guys bring on for done good. I know you have like a long questionnaire on the site and then there's a little bit of a process afterwards for whether or not you select the brands. How do you sort of, how do you select the vendors you end up working with in terms of vetting them? Are there certain certifications that stand out that are automatically like, yep. They're in or what does it mean when a brand has no certifications or the general like vetting process? Yeah. Right. So
Speaker 2:We're in shore, we're looking for brands that do good for people in the planet. But so what we mean by that, when we say do good for people, we're looking for brands that are paying living wages that are making, producing, and safe working conditions, free of child and traffic labor and things like that. And truly like empowering workers with living wages, economic independence, and then therefore really helping people lift themselves out of poverty and then on, you know, good for the planet to us, that is being way more eco-friendly than the big name counterpart in your industry. And that part can take different forms, right? Like some of the brands we work with are big companies that are, you know, using powering their facilities, their production facilities with clean energy, recycling water in their plant using non-toxic dyes, using other eco-friendly materials, things like that. But then some other brands might be like a small company making dog collars out of upcycled, cowboy boots out of a small facility or a garage. You know what I mean? And so that was actually interesting. You know, when we first started, we were like, we're not going to make any subjective value judgments. We're only going to look at independent certifying organizations and we'll create some sort of done good score and some kind of algorithm. And then we'll, you know, give, give a score on environment and workers and other issues. And then we'll give an overall score and very, you know, very left brain, very tech company, very, you know, like equation math equation. And we just found that like, actually when you're trying to define what's good, it's subjective. It's not objective. Right. And so like, right, like who would get the, a better environmental score that company that's making the dark colors that have upcycled cowboy boots. I mean, the only carbon footprint of that whole thing is like the light bulb out in the garage and they're taking waste out of that would otherwise go in the waste stream. So they probably have like, you know, maybe a net negative carbon footprint, but meanwhile, the other company is doing really innovative things to help, you know, move an industry forward and be an example and show how, you know, the fashion industry could, could do things better. And so I don't know how you score that. And so, so instead we decided we do still look to independent certifying organizations to help speed the process. Like if someone is B Corp certified and, or, you know, rainforest Alliance certified and fair trade certified and other things, then we can kind of certify them faster. But we realized, well, one, we, a lot of companies weren't certified, but they're still amazing. And so we said, we're going to have to make some judgments ourselves. We can't rely solely on independent third-party certified organizations and forget given the score, we're going to tell the story of our brands and what they're doing. We just will say, look, this company is making the dark colors that are upcycling comic books. And this one is powering their facility on clean energy and recycling their plant using eco-friendly materials and all this. So, and our users can decide, you know, people who come aren't good can be like, oh, you know, they know what the company is doing. We don't have to put a number on it. So we just tell stories, stories, not data is our as our motto. Yeah,
Speaker 1:No, that's awesome. Is there ever a time when you sort of get an application and they check all the boxes, but you are like, I don't know that we could ever sell this might be a weird question, but I, I, I feel like I'm running into that more and more now with our marketplace.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, I hear, I hear what you're saying because, and yeah, as we've been around longer and more time and all this, we do know more about like what sells well. And so of course you do want to list those brands too, because I mean, we need to stay alive and stay around. You know what I mean? If we're going to continue our work to support these social impact brands and to keep making it easy for people to shop with these kinds of companies, we want to make sales, we want to grow. We want to be able to that the more we grow, the more we grow our impact, the more dollars we can divert consumer dollars, we can divert to brands that are making the world better. So we want to do that. So that does mean, you know, selling stuff like just for users, we want to present stuff that is cool. And they might like, and I guess, so, you know, over the years we do know more about what that might be. So yeah, that, that is something that gets factored in. I don't know that we've had too much of like a brand who's crushing it, who applied. And I would say at the beginning, we were like, just anyone, you know what I mean? I mean, if they've made our social impact threshold, sort of nothing else mattered. And I don't know that we're denying too many brands, I will say definitely like, you know, some brands are applying and then some we're seeking out. And now when we seek out brands, we are both looking for what might sell. Well, and I will say, I guess, just overall product quality. I mean, it's, if the product doesn't seem like a quality product, then you know, we don't want to sell that to our users either. Right? That is, that's all part of it. I mean, that's as much as like the social and the, you know, ESG metrics, the social, environmental, and governments, the, you know, what's your impact on the planet? What are you paying people? I mean, are you making a good product, both because, you know, look, we want people to shop on our site to get good products and not feel like I got something that sucks. But also, I mean, that is part of all of this is if you buy something that's high quality, it lasts longer. It means you can buy less stuff. And that means less stuff in the landfill. I mean, we always try to talk to our users, our customer base through our communications about like buying stuff that you truly love, buying stuff that you truly need and buying stuff at the last, a long time so that you can buy less overall. And, you know, I think that's important to realize too, because a lot of times stuff in this space costs more certainly than what you can get at, you know, H and M or Walmart or whatever, right. Cause we'll have, you're paying people well, and you're using eco-friendly materials and practices that usually cost more for the business to produce that way. So costs more to the, to the customer. But if you're buying stuff that's high quality and will last longer, we always say the cheapest thing is not necessarily the best deal. Right? Like I can buy something at H and M for 20 bucks, but it disintegrates and I gotta buy a new one every year or I can buy something on done good for 60, but it lasts 5, 8, 10 years. That's the$50 thing is the better deal. And it also made a better impact on the planet. So, and people, so, um, so yeah, look, you know, quality man.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Well, one of my questions to you was going to be, what do you think of when people say done good is like the Amazon for good purchasing, but I feel like there's also another layer of this based on just kind of what we were talking about, where it's like, because you guys have such a vetting process, it's sort of like, you also kind of had this done good seal of product inherent there's, I'm pretty sure I could go on Amazon and list my sunglasses if I have a white background in like five seconds right now. And just certify that I'm a, then I'm allowed to sell these. What do you think of when people say done good is the Amazon of good purchasing? Yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Look, I guess the first thing I think of is, I mean, that just is a good way for people to get what we're doing. Right. When we say forums called us the Amazon for social good. You're like, okay, I got it. You know, you're shopping platform where I can buy a lot of different products and a lot of different product categories. And that's, you know, we have clothing, home goods like bedsheets and mattresses and blankets and, you know, kitchen stuff, you know, cups and plates and hand towels and things like that all the way, you know, food, coffee. So it's a wide array of products. And, but yeah, we always screen all the brands to make sure they're having a really positive social, environmental impact. And so I like it in that respect. There's, I mean, I have her once when I was like, well, if you didn't want to be associated with Amazon in the same breath, like, well, I hope that when, you know, it's like Forbes called this the Amazon for social good people know we're not like Amazon in the bad way. Like, you know, not only the brands that we have on the site, you know, we screen them for a good social environmental impact. We're also not, not allowing pregnant women to go to the bathroom or, you know, the drivers who are peeing in bottles or, you know, the, the high injury rates and like all this stuff that you hear about, uh, at Amazon, the way they abused their workers and stuff that we obviously we're, we're a certified B Corp too. Right. And we're a public benefit corporation too. So like we, we also, ourselves are a social impact brand. That also means like, you know, we don't yet have the free two-day shipping. Right. And like, I dunno if we ever will, we do want it to, like, we like Amazon, we do want to make the shopping experience as convenient as possible, finding all these brands in one place. And we want to overtime increasingly decrease shipping time and, you know, just convenience and you know, all of that, we might never get to Amazon level. Cause we're not never going to like, you know, kill workers. So I mean, like I said, I think it's a good, um, I think it's a good summary of, of what we do. I don't think because it's Amazon for social good. I don't think people associate the, uh, the bad stuff with us. And then, yeah, like it's just what you were saying about the brands. I mean, it is, it's really easy for brands to hook up to our site. I mean, it's like 10 or 15 minutes of work and they really don't have to do anything else. Right. We just orders are placed in our site. And then that automatically goes into their existing fulfillment process. So, you know, the inventory, their inventory is automatically synced with our site. Something's marked out of stock on their site. It's out of stock on our site. So it's not too hard in that respect. It is pretty easy for brands to kind of plug in and saw and done good. But yeah, you got to go through the social impact screening process otherwise. And I know that that's why people are shopping on do-good is because we've gone through that process. So we still try to not make that, you know, too laborious or take too long, but it still has to be enough that we, that we feel confident telling our users that you're, that you're doing good.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you guys are definitely a part of that process. Whereas like, I can't say I've tried to list something on Amazon anytime recently, but it's definitely much more automated. I would have to imagine it's like going on eBay, you know what I mean? Like in terms of, if I want to list something like, I don't need to talk to a human.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Right. Anyone can go out and sell at any point in like a few minutes, say like, no, because yeah. Well, because they don't care. I mean, and that's right. And so that is the look I don't, I don't ever, we don't ever try to like, make people feel guilty for shopping on Amazon. And I'll say from time to time, I, if it is something like, you know, a couple years ago for Christmas, I hadn't like got my sister a food processor or she really wanted a food processor and got it. And I waited and it was like two days and she was in Colorado and I was in Michigan at the time I was home for Christmas and she wasn't able to be, so I was like, it's the 23rd. And she really wanted this food processor. And I dropped the ball on that at all. My other kids were talking about, drop the ball. So the one way I can get her, that thing on Christmas was, um, you know, like one Duncan doesn't we don't know of any like ethically and sustainably made it food processors, some of that sort of electronic stuff, like just the, and it's not there yet. There isn't an option and Amazon was the way to get it to her in two days. So, you know, I get it, there isn't a ethical or sustainable option available sometimes, you know, like me, you didn't plan everything ahead. I mean, we, that's what we try to like, say, look, there's an alternative. We don't have everything, but we help people checked on good first, you know, see if we have it. And hopefully it'll be there in a few days. Not, not guaranteed two day free, but like in a few days, so you can wait a couple extra days and then we've got it. You know, we hope people will check there. And we, like I said, we try to make the experience as easy and convenient as we can as close to Amazon in that respect as possible. But yeah. Also knowing that your purchase is doing good for people in the planet, supporting, supporting the kind of companies that you believe in. And so that you can feel good about where your money is spending and you know, where your money, the money you spend is going instead of, so not really knowing what it's supporting or not supporting that snackers.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I feel like, I feel like every time we talk, I can, I want to make like five more points, but it's so easy to go on tangents with you.
Speaker 2:It doesn't have to be all me talking I'll feel free. Well, I mean
Speaker 1:Like the Amazon thing is, so if you were to write off Amazon, you kind of have to write off so many of your friends with it, you know what I mean? Like I have in-laws who just moved to like the middle of nowhere, I'm on a small island and they get, they get one prime drop off a week and they like live by that. Like they look forward to it. They,
Speaker 2:Yeah, there's some places the post office doesn't even go. I mean, so look, I, like I said, I get it. I just, you know, obviously I think there's better alternatives both to Amazon as a company. I think like our company is cooler and, you know, doing better for people on the planet than Amazon. And just when you buy on Amazon, you just never, never know in most cases like where this company is located or what the hell they're doing. And it might not be that bad. It also can be really bad. You know what I mean? Like I just, because Amazon is the name is fitting. It's like the jungle out there, you know, you're getting it from anywhere who knows, you know, like, just as a fact it could be child labor and that supply chain, you know, there could be, I mean, uh, modern day slavery, we could, you know, human trafficking. That's what it is. Not only slavery. So$150 billion a year global industry. And so yeah, if you just kind of go on Amazon and grab something like you just, you just never know, you know, really nice if I knew where the stuff I was, you know, that the money I was spending was not supporting things that I don't believe in. And would it be, wouldn't it be great if it was all using all in one place? You know, so, okay. We, we have that now. We don't have every, every kind of product in the world yet, but we're, we're working on it slowly but surely. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And there's definitely something comforting knowing that when you buy from a brand you're buying from that brand versus like exactly what you just said, you got these Amazon packages that came from that third party that was selling that brand without even potentially permission. It's like, yeah, it's like a whole, like, if you have any issues, then it's like, what can you do about it? Yeah. Anyway,
Speaker 2:Even if you're, yeah. There have some issues. And then it's like, well, this was some fly by night thing in Malaysia. And you know what I mean? There's even that yeah. It's like good luck.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Um, so, okay. So going back a little bit, um, to the, the purchasing power and like the impact of purchasing products off of done. Good. Let's, let's walk back a little bit to what you were saying earlier where, so you've repeatedly, whenever we talk told me that you believe in the power of purchases for good. What, what do you mean by these are obvious questions, so important to raise people out of poverty? Because
Speaker 2:I think like, you know, I think more and more people are realizing that, you know, their purchases make an impact. I think, you know, even like 10 years ago, definitely like a few decades ago, like right. That wasn't necessarily on people's radar. Now people are increasingly becoming conscious consumers being conscious that like, oh yeah. Who I give my money to makes a difference. I think consumer spending is not just like a way to make change. I think it is the world's most powerful force for change. I mean, you Mikhail ever heard me say this stat a lot, like Americans gave$450 billion to charity last year, 50 billion. It's like, that's, it's a ton of money, but we spent over 300 times more than that buying stuff. And so whatever issues we care about, social justice, poverty, climate change, empowering women, empowering people of color and black and person of color owned businesses or animal cruelty, like whatever, whatever the issue is, where we spend our money, that massive amount of resources that is 300 times greater than all the money given to all the nonprofits and all the charities that is a huge mountain of resources. It's, it's the world's most powerful force for change, right? We're going to supply and demand economy, most nations in the world are. And so whatever consumers demand the market supplies, right? And so now more and more people are demanding products, not just like, you know, good products at a good price, but also like with living wages, the more we demand products, maybe living wages, the more living wages we get, the more we demand products made that fight climate change. The more we fight climate change, the market supplies, every anything we want, we have consumers have total power where 70% of the U S economy, the biggest economy in the world. Right. And so, I mean, I think ultimately like, and as again, you know, after working in DC for all these years, you know, I think public policy is important. I think elections matter, I was happy with the outcome of the last election. And also are we going to get major sweeping legislation of the magnitude we need to combat climate change? I don't know. It still might not. Right. I think it's a good chance. We don't unfortunately have to work it out all the time. So I think changing business behavior is key. That's where you get most of my carbon emissions to fight climate change, right. Is changes. Uh, you know, industry-wide changes in business behavior. One way is legislative. Maybe we can, but the other way is consumer demand, right? And you're seeing that all the time, there are more and more social impact brands that kinds work with, but even major corporations, more and more are starting to market there. So at least their sustainable line or their sustainable product, or at least, you know, making some moves in this direction because they know that this is where consumer spending is going. Nielsen put out a report a few years ago that said that this sort of stuff like the impact of their purchases for a lot of consumers, it's starting to rival all the other factors in their purchasing decision, like product specs and price. And they said, brands who failed to recognize this will be left behind BlackRock a few years ago, started saying, they're not going to invest in companies that we can't at least articulate some kind of social mission or purpose for existing, other than maximizing profit. And I think that more than any ideological shift that might happen in DC or, or, you know, throughout the country, the biggest paradigm shift of our time will be this going away from the old 20th century, Milton Friedman model, where everyone said, yeah, that's business, you know, business exists to maximize profit at all costs. And instead shift into a paradigm that says, we expect businesses to be moral actors in the world. That's going to be the most important, impactful ideological shift of this century. But the thing that will drive that is consumer spending this businesses will start to recognize doing the right thing is the profitable thing and doing the right thing as a profitable thing. That's the thing that happens in a market economy. So I'm like who we give our money to as individuals is the biggest impact we have on the world. We give our money to someone, they do more of whatever it is they're doing. So when people act in poverty, but it was more poverty. If they're lifting people out of poverty, this fear of people in you, that's just, that's the way it goes. And so, you know, that our, our collective purchasing power is the world's most powerful force for change. We're trying to make it easy for people to wield that power. And also, like I said, it's, it's both, it's, it's making that change inside. It was also, so each of us as individuals can feel good about what we're purchasing, right? Like I know that with this dollar, I'm supporting things I believe in, instead of things I hate. Right. So that's how I wanted to feel. And that's cool if we can help others feel that way too. Awesome.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it's going to be hard not to ask you the next question then we're recording. I mean, like, I feel like you're, you're leading well into my segues here. We're recording this, we're recording this two days after the UN's pretty damning climate change impact report came out. How do you see the work that done good does in relation to impact related to climate change? I mean, Gretta Bloomberg just came out and very harshly has harshly criticized fashion brands for their impact on global warming. Just curious if you have any thoughts on how, how the work you do relates to that. This
Speaker 2:Is key to solving climate change, I think, right? Like all of us collectively using our purchasing power to hold businesses accountable and incentivize them to fight climate change. Again, I think, look at it. It's going to take all this stuff. I mean, I didn't think we need, you know, we need systemic change from the world community. I'm so glad we're back in the Paris accord and, you know, can you hit those, those commitments for sure. And I actually need to have two events above those, but at least, at least to those commitments, we need legislative fixes. But look at this mountain of resources, this is trillions and trillions of dollars in consumer spending. We can, we can change business behavior that way. It's absolutely a critical part of the solution. You know, and every year this climate, this UN climate report comes out and every year it's just like, oh man, we're just, we're, we're screwed. It's terrible. But it's not worse than last year's report. And unfortunately next year's report probably gonna be worse. If, if things don't change like right now, you know, it's something has to be a buddy. He called me that morning. I was just like, dude, just so demoralized. I'm like, I don't know, man, it's hard not to feel that way, you know? But like you just, you, you get up and you, you do, you do whatever you can, you know what I mean? So like lobbying legislators, voting also very spending your money. Right. I get, I think that's the biggest, one of all the things of all of the things we do, yes. Tweet post on Tik TOK, you know, March vote, give to charity. Also though, if we're not paying attention to where we're spending our money, you know, that's the biggest one. That's the biggest piece of all of these do all the pieces. We all need to do all of these. How about the biggest one is where we spent. So, I mean, that report said we're already full degree, Celsius, hotter than we were at the Dawn of industrial revolution. The pace of that change is increasing every decade, since the mid 18 hundreds, things are getting hotter. Like, I mean, there's just no didn't anymore. They find that they've said just like it is fact that humans are causing climate change. This science consensus, and this report is consensus from the scientific community and 195 countries have to sign up. I mean, I think there's only, I can't remember my geography, how many total? There's like 200 countries total. So you know what I mean? Like this is the consensus of the world that this is true. I mean, there's no debate anymore. And the fact that like one of the major political parties in the U S still wants to debate, this is just, I don't know, it's sad, but anyway, it's like, not only have we, we've gotten a degree hotter since the Dawn of the industrial revolution, but we're going to go up another one and a half degrees. And then just now the next few decades, regardless, like even if countries started dressing, we could have commissions now. So like another one and a half degrees is already locked in. Like climate change is already happening. We're already past the window to effect that, but now we're at least, cause we didn't act, you know, 20 years ago, but now we're getting into the underwear where it's like, okay, we're, we're at least partially screwed, but if we act now we can avoid, you know, the two degree and the three degree, the four degree and at four degrees, I don't, you know, that doesn't sound like a lot. I'm sure a lot of your listeners already four degrees Celsius, average global temperature is bonkers catastrophe. You know, I mean, that's where, you know, even in the few degree markets, like it's not just hotter. I mean, it is definitely more frequent life-threatening heat waves where people, people die just because of the, but it all, you also, then you start to get to, you know, and you get the, the coast is flooded and all this and underwater and more severe weather, hurricanes and floods and fires and all this. Then also you start getting into like food shortages, right? Cause you have impacts on agriculture and herbal land and immigration. If people don't like immigration, you need to, she need to address climate change because people will be leaving places in mass because they will become unlivable. All right. And then you, you know, you start talking about like major impacts the whole global economy anyway. So yeah, we all got to do all that stuff. And like I said, I didn't, you know, our purchasing power where we put our money is it is a huge part of that for all the reasons I, I said a second ago. Right. And so, and we all, it was just, we all have to do all the things we can now, you know, you can't do everything all the time. I know that, you know, it's like, well, I don't know. There are some people who are doing like total zero waste and like total carbon neutral or reduction like living. It's a hard thing to do in modern society. But like, what we all can do is March tweet, vote, pay attention to where we're spending our money lobby our legislators. And I think we're, we're making progress with the world, understanding the seriousness of the problem and need to act slowly. They action is catching up. It needs to move more quickly. So we all, we all do what we can. But yeah. I mean, I guess to answer your question directly, how do our, how does our work fit? Yeah. I mean, consumer goods when they're produced, create carbon emissions. And so we need systemic change throughout industries where they become a part of the solution instead of a part of the problem. And yeah, fashion's a big one. There's that stat that gets there that, that gets thrown around the fashion. Second, most polluting industry behind big oil. That's actually not true. And there's like different ways to measure it or whatever, but yes, there are major polluters and so are other kinds of, um, consumer goods products. Again, we're 70% of the economy. Again now buying from companies that are zero waste or making from up cycle products or in other ways, or the solution to climate change and then signaling to the market to major corporations that there's consumer demand for these products. That's a huge part of the solution. That was a very well-spoken response. You know, I feel like, I don't know if I'm going on to answer this stuff, but like, obviously this is what I do every day. So like, you know, I got some certain feelings about it, I guess obviously I've been equipped my career to do this because I believe in it, it wasn't like, you know what I mean? I draw this, uh, this out of a hat, you know, I was like, what do I think, what do I genuinely think could potentially make the biggest impact? A lot of consumers changing their purchasing habits and making businesses change their behavior. I think that's the world's most powerful force for change. So that's why I do this thing, you know? So like it
Speaker 1:Never surprises me that you, you left your career in press as well. You're like politics, political, what press secretary. I don't even know how to phrase that.
Speaker 2:Right? The secretary communications director kind of different, different words for the same thing. We, I was a spokesman for politician. I like being a spokesman for this better.
Speaker 1:So with your answer in mind, what is done gets role in sort of communicating the impact globally that these purchases can have for each buyer or each person who comes to the
Speaker 2:Website? It's, it's a range of people who come to the site who like some are like kind of steeped in this stuff and know they're looking for, you know, maybe they even have some, they know some of our brands already, but there shouldn't finding more too. I think there are some people who like, are of, you know, just like coming to the idea, just fully understanding the way that they're purchasing makes an impact on the rest of the world. So I don't know. It's a big, it's a big, it's a big spectrum. Right. And I think, yeah, I don't know. Look, I mean, it's, we try to articulate some of this stuff as best we can in our communications and really drive home. Right. That like, I mean, again, we believe that this is the world's most powerful force for change. This is the biggest way we all impact the world. And it is a huge part of the solution on climate change on global poverty and a lot of these other things. And so, yeah, we try to communicate that message. And I have the people who used on good, they get it. And I think it is a double prong thing. Like I've mentioned, it's one that collectively we can all make an impact, but to even as an individual, like I want to know that the purchases I make are aligned with my beliefs and supporting things I want in the world. And so they're related, but of course both, right? I mean, one is cool with a bunch of us. We can really make an impact, but regardless, I want to know that like my actions, whatever they are, my purchasing decisions, but like whatever, you know what I mean? Like are generally in line and contributing to the things that I believe in as opposed to supposed to not hustling. Even like when I was working in DC all those years, it's like all day I'm working for, I was on the leftover for Democrats. So I'll just say, you know, all day I'm, so I'm fighting for economic equality and you know, the fight against climate change and things. And then they give me a paycheck for that. And then I'm giving my money to whom maybe people that are fighting directly against what I'm fighting for everyday. What I mean, I'm funding my own opposition. I don't want to do
Speaker 1:That. Tell us about Don good being a B Corp and why that was important to you. And like what's the ongoing tension status and also like reporting, like what does it, what does it, what goes into being a B Corp?
Speaker 2:Sure. Yeah. So becoming a B Corp. I mean, that was important. I was that just so, so B Corp, if you're a certified B Corp, then you're certified by the independent nonprofit called B lab that you are, you know, your social and environmental impact is positive for the world. Now they're a little different from us. They do an overall, they do, they do like, they do more like point score type stuff, right? And so it's like a battery of these like 200 and some questions that you have to answer and then they give different points each question. But that was one where it was like, when we were talking about like coming up with our own like point score and stuff, you do start to realize like B lab has done a really good job of making that B Corp process, you know, like as objective as they can. But then it's like, well for different industries, we have to, to ask different questions and they've kind of evolved on that over the years. And I had gotten better at that. They're still, still evolving on it. You know, you can always get better. Some, some questions just don't apply to every company. Right. As much as you try to make this sort of like a cookie cutter thing, because it's so objective. So then it's more objective. Like, you know, I don't know some companies there's this, like the questions they asked don't don't quite apply or they apply in a weird way. Like, for example, before we made any money, one of the questions is what percent of your revenue comes your social impact? And I said, well, we haven't started like we started pre-revenue right. We just wanted to build a, a base of companies and products and then build a customer base. And so we weren't charging brands to come on at first. Right. We were just like, brands, Hey, come on for free and sell your product. So great. We got a lot of brands out and then we could get users on because you need, you know, double-sided marketplace, you gotta, you need, need the brands to get the users, need the users to get the brands. So that was how we kind of saw that. But so one of the questions on that assessment was what percent of your revenue comes through social impact? I said, well, a hundred percent will come from it because our whole social impact is helping consumer dollars go to companies that are alleviating poverty and flooding, climate change, et cetera. And I said, well, but what, how much revenue have you made now? I said, well,$0. But I said, so, okay though. I said, well, but yeah. Then that's the net 0%. And that was like, you know, 10 points out of, I think the most you can get is like 200. Right. So that question alone was 10 points out of 200. Right. So it'd be like a huge swing either way. And so what do you mean like, that's that 0%, zero divided by zero is 0%. No, actually it's infinity. I don't know. Isn't it like? So, so like that sort of stuff, it gets tricky. Right. And so we were able to, like, before we got certified, we made our first$10 and I said, okay, now it's$10. That's not as a hundred percent great. Now we get the 10 points, you know what, it's always going to be that sort of like tricky stuff, you know? But like for the most part, like, I mean, they, they really haven't done as good of a job as you can at making like defining good and objective thing that, you know, you can apply to thousands of businesses in the same way. You know, it's like, it's just, it's a tough thing. So, but anyway, you, you answered those 200 plus questions and then yeah. Then you talk to somebody on the phone over there early, and you know, you go through kind of some of those trickier, more subjective questions and they decide if you get the points or whatever, they're a little different too, in that, you know, I think you need 80 points to be a B Corp. You could like max out, you could be, you could have like 90 points and environment and then like lower and workers or governance and some of the other categories or vice versa. And you still get to be a B Corp for us. We still need to see solid work on both people in Atlanta, both workers and the environment anyway, like, so yeah, you go through that. You need to answer the questions. You talk with people there at B lab, and then they give you your points score. And if you get over their score, then you're certified. You're also a public benefit corporation, which means that's a legal designation, right. Instead of like LLC or an Inc you know, like a regular C Corp or S Corp or any, it is, we're a public benefit corporation. We're done good PBC instead of done good, Inc for Duncan, LLC public benefit corporation means is that that's the legal designation. Like I said, it's what kind of business you're incorporated with the state as it's, it's kind of newer. And I still think it's like 30, some states have this designation, some still don't and B lab has done a good job of advocating for states to, to create this designation anyway. So when you legally incorporate, then you have a social mission baked into your corporate charter. So you're essentially like legally required to fulfill your social mission. And it also gives a company the freedom to not have to just maximize shareholder profit or like a big part of the problem is major company. This is why impact is also really important, whether it's, you know, you have a lot of money, you know, like, you know, an angel investor or a VC fund or whatever, but also just for our own, you know, our own 401k is our own retirement savings and whatever other investments we have having some kind of screen or that's another way that our money really makes a difference in what kind of companies we support and what kind of impacts we have on the world. Just as a quick aside on that. So impacts investing also huge. And of course, where we choose to work, companies really want to articulate a social mission because they want to attract top talent. So all of that stuff where we spend our money, where we invest our money, who we work for. Right. So probably benefit corporation gives you the freedom to not have to maximize shareholder value. I mean, I do, right? Like we have you take outside investment, which done good has we have a fiduciary responsibility. They like any company to work, to get a return to our investors. However, we have an equal responsibility to pursue our social mission because that's also in our charter and as a PBC, we're legally required to pursue our social mission. So we absolutely can not maximize shareholder value if it's in pursuit of our social mission. And I think that that's a big part of the problem, right? You've got companies that, well, we've got to increase the stock price every quarter. So how can we ring more profit out of whatever, you know, well, you can start cutting corners and you can lay people off or you can pay people less, or you can move your production facility to somewhere where you're paying, uh, uh, you know, poverty wage in, in some, in a developing country somewhere you can start wherever you can. Uh, you can use worst material that has a larger carbon footprint. So, um, but you know, while we increase the stock price or, you know, 50 cents this quarter, so it was all worth it, right? So the, the public benefit corporation, I think, is an important part of the movement to, you know, part of this broader business as a force for good movement, because then companies legally are required to pursue their social mission. And, uh, and aren't required to maximize price.
Speaker 1:It's definitely interesting. I didn't, I definitely didn't realize the nuance between a PVC and like a, a benefit.
Speaker 2:Yeah. They're both called benefit corporations, but one is the certified B Corp. That means you went through this certification process with the nonprofit B lab, the other anyone can do, you can be any kind of business doing anything, but when you incorporate, you have that social mission in your charter and you're obligated to pursue it. And you don't have to maximize profit for shareholders unless, you know, it's not like you just, you don't have any responsibility to shareholders. Yeah. The people invest in you. You have a look. I think it's also a Dunkin value that you like, you know, try to do your best for the people who help support you. We are actually really lucky to assemble a group like social impact investors who care about our mission. And that's why they're, that's why they're involved. So we've, we sought out folks like that from the beginning too. And I mean, this sort of thing, like what we're doing, that's why that's why you get involved. Um, but it's like, I'm glad that the, that PVC designation benefit corporation legal designation is there because it does give companies some more leeway and responsibility to pursue that social mission that they set out with. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Absolutely. Whenever we talk, certainly talk for like three, one day, we'll we'll have a drink in person. I don't like, you still can't believe we have it. Sometimes it feels like we have, so let's see. I'm gonna totally gonna pivot just, just in the interest of time. So for lots of e-commerce real retailers during the pandemic, the pandemic has definitely exploded growth. As people have shifted online. Do you think this is something then good is, yeah,
Speaker 2:We didn't see the same. Well, I know one, I think you got to look below those numbers a little bit. Yeah. People say, oh my God, he commerce is up 10000%. Are you guys like, you know, rich now having like, not, uh, but you know, under that sort of 10000% e-commerce increase, that was because like grocery was up or yeah. Grocery was up 20000% or whatever. Right. It's like, uh, but clothing was down 15% and you know, some of the other stuff, like the kinds of products we sell were down, so overall e-commerce is up, but it was because people were ordering their groceries online now for the first time, more so than like they're buying more shirts or whatever. And because also we weren't going out, so we didn't need as many shirts. And I think some of the economic uncertainty, or for whatever reason, we definitely saw a lot of our higher dollar discretionary items drop, you know, like it's not a lot fewer, like really nice,$150 sweaters, you know what I mean? But we were, I mean, look, we, we we're the marketplace. We sell what our brands saw. So some of our were able to get up and running by selling masks pretty quickly and hands sanitizer. And we've always sold bar soap and stuff like that. It's a sales for that stuff. So yes, we did. We did see sales go up during COVID. Uh, but it wasn't like some crazy, it was like, you know, the, the mask and the hand sanitizer and the bar soap collectively was able to like somewhat a little bit make up for, you know, the, um, the, uh, the drop in some of the other categories, like clothing and things.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Especially when you think about the price point of what you just described.
Speaker 2:Well, right, exactly. I mean, that's the thing. Some people are worried about their jobs, but like I said, even if you're not, it's just like, well, if I'm not going out for a couple of months, why am I buying new sweaters? You know, pajamas, maybe, maybe I need some new lounge wear sweatpants, you know, I don't need to be dressed to the nines. Where am I going? You know? So yeah. That's how, that's how that all kind of worked out for us by, by the holidays last year is when things sort of started to return to normal in terms of what people were purchasing, because they're still buying gifts. And then, you know, even, even by like the spring, I mean, a lot of last winter post-Christmas, you know, the first part of the year we were still selling masks, but like other things started to return more to normal. And then we saw a huge drop off in mass, of course, like it may stop wearing, um, I hope our drop-off and masks stays. I hope we don't start selling more masks because of, you know, the Delta very enforced some other variants. I really hope people get vaccinated because that's really the thing that'll end all this. And so that we don't have to sell any more masks, you know what I mean? Right. Like, but if it does continue spread like this to the vaccine population, boy, I really hope there's enough a variant that beats the vaccine. And we have to start all this over at square one, if so, I'm sure I'm asked sales will skyrocket. That's the thing I don't know. Yeah. I know
Speaker 1:It would be great to get back to a little bit, any sense of normal. And so do you feel like in terms of the e-commerce environment that you guys are existing in right now that it is a little more of a consistency versus the last March had
Speaker 2:On it and sales and then things are more normal now for sure. That's right. Yeah. I'm in terms of the sales and the product mix and things like that. I think things have most, pretty much returned to normal. Excuse me. Yeah. I think we're, it's kind of back to normalcy in terms of the kinds of products we're selling and in terms of, you know, our lives, my life, I was returning to normalcy this summer too. I went to a short red rocks and I'm based in Denver a few weeks ago and it was awesome. So good after two years to be back there, you know, and like just do me a PSA. I really hope people get vaccinated because that's the thing that stops mutation, right. It's not spreading quickly among and un-vaccinated population. Like it is now we don't get new variants and then we don't have to shut down the academy. Again, we don't have to wear masks again. We don't have to I'll stay at home again. And so I really hope people get vaccinated for that. Cause, and plus also again, I'm totally off three albums, just because there's an audience like the Delta Varian is impacting people more younger. Right. The average age, I think of hospitalizations in Florida or something like that. I could begin that Sarah, but like wherever it was was 42, I just saw an article a few days ago. Right. So like, and that's almost the people can think of hospitalized are almost exclusively unvaccinated, so to protect yourself and also so that we don't have to sit inside again, please. There's my off-topic PSN.
Speaker 1:Okay. Well honestly I could ask you 20 more questions. I think, I think I'm going to conclude for today. Appreciate the PSA and the conversation.
Speaker 2:I know me too. It's fun. I appreciate you having me on so we can talk to it from her.
Speaker 1:Thanks Colin so much for joining me today and definitely appreciate the thoughtful feedback and especially some definitely food for thought related to some of the impact purchasing decisions really have
Speaker 2:The biggest impacts we make on the world. Our purchases. Did I say that? I'm not sure if I remembered to say no, I'm just joking. Thank you for having me on. And let me say what I think about things rant a little bit. I appreciate it. Appreciate it. If anybody listening wants to check out dunga.com, we usually do a discount code. Cindy, Tom I'm on a podcast so we could do it for you or we can do like artists in 20. So anybody listening who wants to go to dunga.com and use the discount code artisans Wani can get 20 bucks off purchases over a hundred bucks. So now you can, you know, save the world a little bit and do good for people on the planet with your purchase and also save 20 bucks. So again, we'll use the code artists and 20 anybody listening to this and use that code. And I get 20 bucks off at not unplugging the website, maybe one too many times, but yeah.
Speaker 1:Awesome. Thanks. No, that's a great discount. Thank you.
Speaker 2:Yeah, no, no problem. We're glad for it. We're glad if you know, people will come and check us out.